David Sime - Worlds of Possibility
Welcome to "AigoraCast", conversations with industry experts on how new technologies are transforming sensory and consumer science!
David Sime directs AR and VR activities for Oncor Reality and has led Digital Marketing, Video, Augmented and Virtual Reality projects across five countries and twenty-five distinct industries. With over 20 years’ experience in demonstrating the quantifiable benefits of digital media in energy, hospitality, education and medicine, David works with Google, Scottish Enterprise and the CIM to apply emerging technology such as Virtual and Augmented Reality to meet new and existing organisational challenges.
Transcript (Semi-automated, forgive typos!)
John: So, David, welcome to the show.
David: Thank you for having me.
John: My pleasure. So, David, for our listeners who maybe aren't so familiar with your work in your company. I thought it'd be helpful especially given your background in marketing, if you could talk to us about, you know, how you started your career, say 20 years ago and the twists and turns that have led you now to the extent of reality it really speaks.
David: No problem, John. I started off when I graduated being asked by friends and family to help them with their business plans and so forth. I graduated in a kind of a business and consumer related subjects to university. And the thing that interested me most always was individual and consumer behavior, consumer psychology. So I would write business plans for people, but they would almost always be from the perspective of the consumer. They would almost fall from the perspective of the customer, and they would quite frequently be based around psychological or sociological behavioral patterns because those were more predictable and it help people who are starting a business and very much are a product or service based approach to things of their set approach to see it from the other person's side. And I run a company called Ace to Eskimo's marketing for about three years. At that point, I was helping small businesses that had very small resources to try to compete with very large companies. But fortunately, this was the end of the 1990's, and it was the Internet was coming to the forth. And this was a great leveler for people. And I got involved in even though I'm not really of a technical disposition personally because of that, because, you know, somebody walking from the bedroom could suddenly compete with a large multinational company and reach anywhere in the world. But I wasn't prepared for and I was pleasantly surprised by, was the amount of information that I was able to get back and the amount of research and analytics I was able to suddenly access, which was marketing is and always ever has been about 70% research and 30% promotion. But not research was hugely expensive and usually out of date and usually not particularly granular by congressional days. Where's the stuff that I was getting from what was at the time called auction? Lots of it became analytics and it was phenomenal. I could tell exactly how many seconds somebody been on the page, roughly where they were from, what they were engaging with newer tools. I could actually see their mice moving around and see what they were looking to see where they were getting up. And so as time went on, I developed into digital marketing specifically and then social media marketing, which was great for me because, again, with the analytical tools, I was able to work out people's interests and work their backgrounds and the relationships and then tie that together with their likely social and sociological and psychological behavior. And then I ran a few other companies and started creating media based on these four client.
John: Media for social media or media on television?
David: Initially, things like text based stuff, because that was popular. And then time went on and attention spans visibly noticeably diminished and I started adding more images and less text. And then I thought of language. And then as time progressed further and the attention spans continue to diminish, I moved in the direction of video because you can speak a thousand words. And so that was great. That worked really well. And I had to start as a company called Oncor Video - Online Corporate Video Production Limited. And it was all about research and clientele. The channels that you're going to use, the appropriate content, create a very specific or videos specific to those audiences based on the research and then research into their responses so that anything which isn't working quite so well gets abandoned or modified and anything which is working well gets budget and time put behind focusing on that. And this is called cycle of improvement and refinement which was great, then people started realizing, and quite rightly, that you could create much better video than the expensive, highly produced stuff that we were creating with our own mobile phones. And it was more real as more teams were less polished and kind of fake. So it became also very challenging and quite competitive market. But I'd already realized that people were engaging in the same way with video that they wish to. I could see the engagement diminishing through the analytics and the matrix. So I thought, well, what is the most next logical step from reading to looking at images to possibly, you know, engaging with video? And I realized that actually what people want to do is they want to actively engage going back to people's behavioral and sociological and psychological risk. We are interactive creatures. So what would give us that was the emerging technology of virtual and augmented reality, where it was immersive, it was interactive, it was live, and it was more real. And that was a very good choice for me, because I ended up moving from a heavily competed for industry, which was kind of dying into way which was far less competitive, much more analyzable and very exciting. The sky's the limit. I would do anything and that's why I am where I am. So I created a sister company called Oncor Reality. And I know I'm dealing with people all over the world because everybody wants a piece of this, particularly with Covid and so forth, that there's this broadcast. And if you can't move to a place, if you can't go to a physical place, then to virtually bring it to the consumer as great. Similarly, if the products can't be brought to the consumer to use augmented reality to bring it to them, as great as well. Not only can analyze timelines, engagement, location, demographics, and psychographics. I can analyze spatial behavior. I can analyze where people move. What they interact with, what they pick up, you know, how they behave in a space, which is a whole new thing for me. And so there we go. Long story short.
John: Well, that is fascinating. That is really fascinating. I hadn't even been aware of the fact that you've got someone, I suppose that how do you typically deploy one of your augmented reality solutions? Are these apps that people download or how does this work?
David: And that's a good question, John. I yes, traditionally augmented reality, which is the where you're overlaying layer of digital media over real live video for one or three glasses rather than virtual reality, which is fully immersive. Everything's digital. Reality traditionally goes through phones at the moment, used mostly app based. But I am a big fan. Again, marketers tend to change things. So we go into the past and see what happened and what continues to happen. And then we use that to predict the future. And the only place I could see for this marketing was the QR code. I saw that succeed in some places, Japan and China and feel conspicuously and other places, i.e. the UK and the United States. And the reason was and one of the main reasons in Japan and China it was installed pretty much in the phones as you bought them. So you had a QR code reader either on your phone or as part of their ubiquitous social on chat channel WeChat. And so just there, whereas here in America, we find that you had to download an app on the conception was or rather misconception was that you had to download an app every time you wanted to use it. And then that was a massive barrier. And that is what seemed to be happening with the model for augmented reality. And if you wanted to make an IKEA augmented reality thing, you would have to download the IKEA app. That's a friction point as a barrier as far as I was concerned, that wasn't going to work. So I'm very much in the direction of Web-based AR. You only need the link you do not need to download an app and it will work unless there's a good reason not to do it that way. I'll always go for Web-based so you don't have to download it.
John: Right. That's fascinating. Okay, I'm actually going to have to ask you for demos here after the show. But I didn't realize that this was I mean, this is a very good solution. So what are some of the applications that you find? So how long have you been doing these kind of web based augmented reality solution? When did you start in this area?
David: Well, I started in augmented and virtual reality about five years ago. I got into augmented specifically about three years ago, and we were only really able to get into Web-based AR and VR, respectively are both a year and a half ago up until one point the technology wasn't quite there and anybody who was coming out with good solutions were struggling in terms of their business models and collapsing in that kind of thing. So the tools that we used were things like this one called vectra. There's another one called Etoile. There's various these days. And then and they give us the platforms that we need for different purposes. So, yeah, only about a year and a half for the Web based stuff. But in virtual reality itself, the fully immersive stuff that's now getting to the stage where you can access the purely Web based as well to the hubs and so forth, and that's a massive move forward as well.
John: And even in this environment, even to become more lightweight environment, you can still track people's behavior? I wasn't really aware of this and never put it together that if someone is in virtual reality, you have this huge advantage that you know what they're looking at. You know, the pattern of movement. I mean, there's all these new signals that are coming in that's all available even within the lightweight solution? Or do you have a physician sort of trade off?
David: No. It's all still available. If anything, you get a little bit more information or you're likely to get more information of Web based because it requires by definition an Internet connection whereas our based will be running that completely disconnected from the completely isolated, which in itself is an advantage if security is an issue or a privacy is an issue. For instance, or creating things for preschool children as we have, we use download based. In fact, we actually download it onto specific pieces of hardware. The arnaut will be connected to the Internet. So there is no way that our information can be abused or accessed. However, with Web based, it's the exact opposite. You can tell not only more of the people looking in the expedients, but where are they physically? You can literally triangulate their physical location to within feet. So that can be quite interesting as well, because particularly with augmented reality and when it's reacting to the physical environment around, you kind of want to know where they are, you know.
David: It knows visually that you want to know geographically and you especially. So it gives you everything that you need. And virtual reality is even more interesting, because I remember when I was younger and when I was doing a university retail operations section and we were very interested in customer flow passwords, particularly in supermarkets, you know, the illusion of choice in supermarkets that you could walk anytime, anywhere you want. But you try walking the wrong way off an aisle and see how people react to you. And so there's always been these kind of flow pattern analysis. Well, this is the kind of thing that I can do actually physically not a lot easier with sensory technology, Internet things stuff. But we can certainly do it in virtual reality, you know, in any dimension, in any direction. We can see where people are, where they're looking, particularly with one of the newer pieces of technology, people tracking where their head is pointed. But we are the eyes are looking at if there's a Rosell markers like pupil dilation and so forth, really get a sense in the virtual supermarket or even in the physical who are they engaging with, even unconsciously.
John: Right. Fascinating. So there's a whole range of kind of, I guess. So you've got designed experiment. I guess what I'm trying to get my mind around here are like laboratory like you would have extremely designed controlled experiments or people might come into some central location and they're going to participate in the test, right? And in the other end, I suppose you've got, incidentally collected data for an app, which is just meant ostensibly for the sake of entertainment. You know, someone I suppose is out in public. There's a website. I mean, what does this look like in practice? How do you get, are the apps, or not the apps, the web pages advertised in public? How do you get people engaged with these?
David: There's a few different ways you can either use physical signage or physical, you know, even QR codes to activate them. So imagine you're walking down the street and just says, you know, either hover your camera over this image AR and it will take you directly to the experience which will then the augmented content will appear in front of the real world. Or you can point them in that direction for non-specialist specific augmented reality, by which we mean a little dinosaur appears you could be where you are physically and just know where the flow is imported so it knows what it's running around on. But other than that, so that kind of thing you can send to people through email, most commonly social media or in some other form of digital media that they're engaging with anyway. And the third way is using markers, physical markers or in cases to your location and where the thing will be activated according to where you are, whether or not your Bluetooth begins, Wi-Fi begins are or even just triangulation on Google Maps.
John: Right. Fascinating. And so then one of your clients, what are there, okay obviously, there's just, you know, brand awareness and general consumer engagement. Is there a designed experiment behind the scenes oftentimes for these particular metrics that you're trying to track? Or what are the motivations then?
David: That's interesting question, because it varies a lot. According to the market and my markets, my available markets have exploded since I go into this field previously more consumer based, advertising based commercial. And what happened was we started increasingly getting pulled in by education. And that's a major field, no major growth field, particularly with Covid but just anyway, also large scale industrial things like civil engineering, you know, the building of large infrastructure projects, bridges, oil platforms and that kind of thing. And then energy in general getting into oil and renewables, dangerous fields where you really want to physically go there until you really know what you're doing. So if you're training somebody up or you want to do a site inspection, it would be much better to do that from a distance. And that's just a tiny fraction of the markets that are available at the moment. Every single one of these is looking for different metrics every time. So in the case of let's see education on the job training for oil and gas, they might be looking for how well people are engaging with the right content. We're teaching them, for instance, how to use a pressure control valve on a fun separator in the oil industry or something like that to make sure you're under too much pressure and is going to split and explode. They're wanting to see for you looking at what are you picking up on as a trainee? Are you in time? How long did it take you to respond? And what stimulus did you respond to the just visual stimulus from your reading materials? Did you respond to audio stimulus from the thing hissing or creaking? Did you respond to the temperature change as the pressure increased on these kind of things? And then so it varies accordingly. Similarly, if we were doing, again, energy sector or any hazardous environment where people may need to escape from a fire or a disaster situation, they need to know the right service so you can track they wake up in their bunk when hear the alarm going, what did they take? How quickly did they respond to unforeseen circumstances? Like, I know that falling in front of them. I know I'm using a lot of oil analogies here. I live in Scotland, so there's a lot of North Sea oil going on here. And so, you know, if they responded, how quickly did they respond? Did they make it to the lifeboat to the exit in time? And, you know, gives them this, you know, and basically that can be assessed and visualized and viewed by an assessment or the person being conscious that they're being viewed, which is very important, but not commercial analysis research. We were using secondary and primary research, but the primary research tools were things like surveys for quantitative and focus groups for qualitative and straightforward observation. But people, you know are subject to observational bias, aren't they? So they're being watched. They would behave. The same digital thing was great for that, because you can watch people with them knowing that they're being watched. You're getting honest, accurate behavior. But it was up until that point hard to remove observational bias from physical interactions and analysis. But now we can do because in the virtual world you watch them in the same way as you do in digital marketing. But they're doing physical things.
John: That's fascinating. And so for these kind of more, because, of course, immersive testing is a hot topic in sensory right now where you're trying to put people, especially with Covid, trying ideally in someone's home, to be able to put them in some context that might be more reflective of the way the product is actually used. And some of the things you mentioned, of course, I have obvious implications to immersive testing. I mean, you make yourself a bit involved in, you know, consumer research for of immersive environments. What is required technologically? I mean, if you have an augmented reality on your phone, there's I mean, there's limits to how much you can do with that. If you're going to have someone put a headset on, how does this work in practice? What's the kind of minimum technological requirements to get people into fully immersive environments?
David: Well, we are built for augmented reality, that kind of mixture between digital and real world. And we are very much at the beginning of our revolution in terms of hardware, because up until this point, augmented reality has very much been restricted to looking through your mobile phone. The only examples where it kind of leeched over into wearables, as we call them, had glasses and goggles would be magic leap, which was heavily invested in but largely failed. It was initially is now moving towards a consumer level, but was initially sold as a commercial level product. No, no other way around. So but then you've got the more successful HoloLens from Microsoft, very expensive, requires that either those to see connected by cable to a more powerful PC and is used a lot in engineering or commerce and so forth, but not really in a naturalistic home environment. And now, we're getting new things coming out. Google have just announced a partnership with a company called North Locals to create the new version of what they originally thought as Google Glass, which is basically something that looks like glasses, that you can get this kind of, you know, overlay of digital worlds on you've got a real there's another company coming out of Beijing under questionable intellectual property situation because their head engineer used to work for Magic Leap. But they are good because they’re just like glasses. You attach them to your mobile phone using a USB-C connection. Your phone does the processing and the glass just to display things so they don't look that different from a normal pair of glasses. But it's not commonplace. It's not ubiquitous yet, but it's great to be very soon. I would predict within two years we're going to see a lot of these in people's homes. Also Apple have just announced their own apple glass, which again, is going to be something very light, very wearable. And you can bet that the consumers of Apple products will be early adopters because they were a large scale early adopters of the Apple Watch. They were, you know, and there is something which existed, but only became ubiquitous with the advent of Apple taking on that technology and packaging it in a nicer way. And so, as I say, a year maybe two and you get and see people being able to really behave naturally and augmented reality to hold something up in front of their faces. Virtual reality is different. Virtual reality is ahead. And again, I mentioned the difference between tailored and untailored, which is doesn't need to be connected to a computer or not. Well, Oculus, owned by Facebook and now, brought out something called an Oculus quest in an Oculus group prior to that, this thing has what we call six degrees of freedom, which means that you can walk around, look after Ray UpDown, and it will monitor and track your movement. It doesn't connect to a computer. It's really quite powerful. It's got quite a lot of memory. It doesn't really cause nausea. And as many of these things do, because it disconnect between what you're saying and was in your balance centers, in your brain or telling you what your eyes are telling you, which causes a kind of a seasickness effect if there's a disconnect. But the other thing is it's very cheap by this time. 400 pounds all in and you've got a device which can do almost anything you can imagine in virtual reality and it can see your hands. You don't even need a controller or you can move your hands in front of you and your hands appear in the virtual world, meaning you can pick up and interact with objects naturally and no big deal. And that means that at that price, 400 pounds, that's a lot more accessible. And there are other ones coming out. There's a company called PEKO. You see the issues here. It's owned by Facebook, Oculus. So it makes a little money on gathering information, which is great for us. This is what we want. But for consumers or businesses, this is the last thing that they want. So the result PEKO have come out with this very, very similar headsets, very similar price point, but for much reduced risk of you losing your data unless you've got it right.
John: Right. And so that would be a good solution for someone who has testing facility. I mean, I'm thinking about how my clients would use this potentially. It seems that you would it's still going to be too big of an investment to send out to consumers simply for participating in a test, maybe understanding panel of people out there in the world who are part of your I mean, even then having a standard panel of, say, Oculus or what was the name of the other company?
David: PEKO. Yeah.
John: Yeah PEKO. It still seems like it’s better suited for central location, but this is really fascinating, David. So, actually, amazingly, we're running out of time. I do want to talk a little bit about some of the additional augmentations to virtual reality Haptics or maybe some of the chemical sensing that can be done to simulate smells and there’s also a progress on, there's some environments where people have lots of fans set up where they can simulate wind at the beach, this kind of thing. I mean, I just kind of wrap up here. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that before sensory technology build as researchers or as people wishing to engage with our consumers. What are some of the things that you think we should be thinking about over the next couple of years?
David: Well, over the next couple of years you got me in a rabbit hole, kind of a subject where I start game over and over enthused about the far future. But currently, over the next couple of years, there are other sensory which people can and will be engaging with. Early technology from companies like Haptics and various other high tech generally refers to force feedback, and that generally refers to wearing gloves or other outfits, which responds to digital or virtual stimulus that you might meet in the virtual world of physical object. Let's say like a rock that when you reach show with your hands wearing these virtual gloves and you wrap around this digital object which doesn't physically exist. The gloves will stop your fingers movement as they were coming into contact with the stone. And they will even provide you with the texture and sometimes even the temperature of the object that you're picking up. So it really does feel like you are picking up a rock or I used the Haptics interface in London last year and there was a tiny digital fox hops into my hands and I could feel all pods as I walked around in the palm of my hands. It was so accurate that at one point some confetti fell from the sky and I grabbed a piece of this confetti and I could feel it between my fingertips. It was unbelievable. But this is still very expensive and quite rare and not very much over then peso's musicology when it when it first comes out. So these things are already getting smaller and wearable because the Haptics startup requires a whole pneumatics. Then we've got audio, spatial audio, binaural audio. So just using normal headsets, which can pick up on the tiny tiny fraction of a second between sound hit in one ear and hit another and your brain interprets the distance and direction so normal headphones can recreate that spatial audio. Other than that, olfactory is incredibly important for memory because you're smell, you know, the olfactory nerves run through your memory cortex. So they well, as you probably have noticed, smells will really trigger powerful memories. But they also can be used to elicit memories so that when you're training people, for instance, and on the airfield's environment and you put the diesel fuel smell or the air aviation fuel smell in there, they will pick up or remember more of their lesson. And how that works is currently something akin to a harmonica or a mouth organ with lots and lots of little cartridges of scents, each of which are like the ones that you would put on E-cigarette. So a lot about bringing in a little scent of fun and a tiny micro heater. And then they will send the smells to your nose by a small number of these. If you use the right sense using same sciences which have been propagated by perfumes since you can create many, many more recognizable smells. For example, I myself have a background in aromatherapy. If you combine the scent of ginger, cinnamon and a raisin called benzoin, it smells exactly like Coca-Cola. I mean, absolutely indistinguishable, even though all three of those smells don't smell anything like Coca-Cola. So using those combinations, just as you do with a computer printer, you can make almost infinite, you know, red, green, blue can create almost infinite colors that can create almost infinite smells. And you just read part of your head that the far future is getting into, we're already using a non-invasive electrodes on your head to pick up brain signals so you can control your movement through the virtual world. And that's getting more and more accurate, more sophisticated. The next step is something which I stumbled across, which is being used in Parkinson's disease treatments, which is a non-invasive means of deactivating the part of the brain which causes tremors and bypassing that. This is using something called temporal interference. So far very, very high frequency electromagnetic signals through your brain, which are two high frequency to cause any bioactive resonance. That doesn't cause your physical bits of your body to react in any way. But when or when they cross over, allowing you to triangulate to very accurate points, it will slow down that frequency to a bioactive resonance, meaning that you can actually non-invasively influence the reactions of parts of your brain, which conceivably could create the sensation of looking at the color blue, smelling corn flour or laughter or that kind of thing. And as it gets more and more sophisticated, it could be used to mimic and recreate images, smells, sounds, textures and so forth without the need for any of these bulky pieces of physical hardware.
John: Right. So you just seem like you are seeing the things or smelling them or hearing them? And, you know, I did my postdoc neuroscience, and I would say that's a hard problem. But it's interesting that people are working on it. I know it's fascinating, you know, it's hard to believe the time period that we're living in, I mean, there is things that you would think were science fiction even now, you know, and we're talking you know, I kind of recall about combining that with virtual reality to collect in virtual environments. I mean, it really is amazing. Another thing I'm sure you see in the new opening, I told the CPG three the new kind of text and well say kind of text generation engine that can translate between different bodies of text. It is trained on a huge set of text.
David: Yeah. Universal translator almost.
John: Yeah, exactly. And we've applied to do some academic collaboration. They have an opportunity for, you know, you can apply for early access to use a tool. I would say have applied to see if we can have access to the tools to train it on customer-consumer interviews, one on one interview and see if we can find this tool to be able to have a reasonable conversation with somebody about a product. So we put that in a virtual environment. Pretty soon you've got it as if an interviewer and someone can have a conversation and there's no interview. It's all just technology.
David: So you get qualitative and quantitative analysis at the same time for a fraction of the cost?
John: Yeah, exactly. So it's an extremely exciting time.
David: You know, John, the potential for using consumer products for that, like what was the apple Alexa and the Google kind of thing, so that the research organizations are having to invest heavily in specialized equipment because the equipment already exists. So commercially subsidized for that because of economies of scale. And also earlier on, you mentioned the potential cost of putting an Oculus quest in everybody's household and sure is very expensive. There are other ways to do that, though. And the Google Cardboard, for instance, costs less than a dollar. It can come out to people's homes with all the instructions on it and Google Cardboard is a foldable headset that you just swipe your phone into. And it doesn't offer six degrees of freedom, but it can tell what degree or the three degrees of freedom and it can tell where you're looking up to and left a degree of interaction with one button. I mean, that can be researched. And you're then leveraging the technology that people already either phone, which guess most of the tech in there and the communications infrastructure. So that's one way to get past that problem.
John: Now, I definitely agree. But we have some Google cardboards here. The only issue with them is they smell like cardboard. So it's a little bit. So we're trying to find other solutions in the same vein. But that's definitely leveraging the existing and more language technologies. So fascinating and I love to talk about 5G also, but we're out of time. But I would like to say a couple of things. You have a great LinkedIn, and I think that anyone listening to this should follow you on LinkedIn. So could you please, you know, talk a little bit about the sorts of things you like to share on LinkedIn and how people can get in touch?
David: Sure. I've been very lucky over the years with LinkedIn because the subject that I talk about is slightly more average, interesting than your average content on LinkedIn. And I've developed a very fast growing following on there and following shares information with Minar. So whenever something new comes out in the augmented or virtual reality world or and the Internet of Things world or any of the I get sent information very quickly by people who are tagged and on. And so every day I like to share a new piece of content, if I can, to show what's possible and to discuss more the benefits of this. How could this be used not just here's a fancy new piece of technology, but why would you use this and ask people the question, what would you use it for? I think sometimes its discussions more than anything which are more interesting. Of course, my background video marketing is always videos that I put up, so you should at least get good entertainment every day. But actually the discussions that result are probably the most illuminating, I think.
John: I know, we've been involved in some interesting discussions. I actually learned about QR codes from you at one point. That's where we even started talking to each other. So how can people get in touch with you? Suppose someone listen to this, they would like to hire on Oncor. They just have some questions. What are the best ways for them to reach you?
David: Well, I'm on LinkedIn pretty much all the time. So if you just look up on LinkedIn, of course David Sime, then you'll find me or my email address is firstname.lastname@example.org. And, that's always a good place to get me as well. And I've always interested in new projects, new collaborations, especially because there's so many specialists out there on the technology's moving far too fast for anybody to be reinventing wheels. So if anybody's looking for a partner for a project or has got something that they would like to achieve and they just don't know how to do it, please message me, I find this stuff fascinating.
John: Wonderful. Okay, great and we'll put the link in the show notes to your LinkedIn page. Any last comments? What's your advice for our listeners over the next year? What are some things that they should have thinking about?
David: Oh, right. Always work on the assumption that people are going to be looking at reducing travel. That's going to be an ongoing norm. So if you leverage digital technology to or look at the type of technology which leverages elimination of travel or movement, that is going to be something which will grow and do not rely anything any new development, no matter how outlandish it might seem, just like you were saying. But it seems like science fiction. It does to me every morning I wake up and go, no, that couldn't work. And it does so just keep an open mind. Things are changing very, very rapidly. And we're moving into and beyond the realms of Star Trek right now so the more wacky it seems, the more interested you should be.
John: Yeah, great advice. Excellent. Well, thank you very much, David. It's been really interesting and I appreciate you joining us today.
David: My pleasure. Thanks for having me, John.
John: Okay, that's it. Hope you enjoyed this conversation. If you did, please help us grow our audience by telling your friend about AigoraCast and leaving us a positive review on iTunes. Thanks.
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